#051: Cultural Humility and Listening with the Heart: Nina Simons & Apache Plume
Welcome back to the Mother Tree Network! In today's episode, we have the incredible Nina Simons joining us to share her wisdom, experiences, and insights.
Nina starts off by discussing her unique practice of creating an altar around a tree to protect her New Mexico home from wildfires, which led her to deepen her relationship with the land and feel a sense of sacredness.
“And there was a huge wildfire, the biggest in New Mexico's history a year or 2 ago. And I reached out to a friend who's done a lot of studying with a Peruvian practitioner. And she said:. Make an altar around a tree that you love. And that became my practice…Putting flowers around the base of the tree and feeding it with water and sometimes with wine and with prayer And sending the prayer down into its roots and up into its branches. And, you know, what I found was that It really helped me feel the kind of sacredness…”
Nina then dives into her book "Nature, Culture, and the Sacred," focusing on women's leadership and racial equity and justice.
She passionately emphasizes the importance of strengthening the feminine within everyone, not just women, as the repression of the feminine has had a profound impact on society as a whole.
Together, Aminata and Nina explore the significance of diverse leadership and racial equity, discussing the challenges and lessons learned from convening diverse groups.
They delve into the importance of creating safe spaces, discomfort resilience, and the need for love and acceptance in racial justice work.
Cultural humility is also a key concept highlighted, acknowledging the embedded white supremacy and implicit bias that exist in society.
Nina shares her personal experiences with cultural humility, the conflict in Israel and Palestine, and the importance of listening with the heart.
But the wisdom doesn't stop there. Nina shares her profound experience with a plant mentor, Apache Plume, and the lessons she learned about revealing beauty, camouflage, fertility, and growing in community. Aminata reflects on the constant shifting of the natural world and the power of camouflage.
The conversation takes a personal turn as Nina discusses her transformative process in her 60s, recognizing her white privilege and conditioning, and the importance of slowing down and making deliberate choices.
Nina's deep connection with nature and its capacity to heal and regenerate shines through as she shares her journey of finding solace and stability in nature.
This episode is filled with deep wisdom, personal experiences, and a call to honor the feminine in ourselves and the world.
Nina’s Bio
NINA SIMONS is Co-founder and Chief Relationship Officer at Bioneers, and leads its Everywoman’s Leadership program. Throughout her career spanning the nonprofit, social entrepreneurship, corporate, and philanthropic sectors, Nina has worked with nearly a thousand diverse women leaders across disciplines, race, class, age and orientation to create conditions for mutual learning, trust and leadership development.
She is teaching a course in 2024.
https://www.bioneerslearning.org/everywomans-leadership-nina-simons
📚 Timestamped overview
02:34 Scary memory of losing stuffed animals in park.
06:19 Unusual, resilient Apache Plume flourishes in drought.
07:22 Wind scatters seeds, grows in bunches/spiky. Interesting adaptations. Lichen knowledge from condition recovery.
12:14 Shed conditioning, recognize privileged, cultivate awareness.
16:50 Tree altar protects home from wildfires.
18:27 Book is like a grandmother, you moved into elderhood.
23:03 Writing talks, self-worth, book chapters, cultural elements.
26:43 Talk about racial equity and breakdowns.
29:51 Having at least 30% marginalized group safe. Introduce through identities, conscious and brave. Freedom to become who we truly are.
32:47 Credit given to Camila Majied for diversity work. Three pillars of prosocial behavior: discomfort resilience, fierce compassion, cultural humility. Editor's focus on convening diverse groups.
37:19 Celebrate life while doing racial equity work.
40:31 Humbling and painful to witness Israel conflict.
44:36 Late bloomer Capricorn offers inspiration and reminders.
TRANSCRIPT
Amanda Aminata:
Awesome. Welcome. Welcome, everyone, to the Mother Tree Network and to our special guest, someone who I've been waiting a long time to talk with actually, Nina Simons. Hey, Nina.
Nina Simons:
Hey, Aminita. Good to be with you. Finally.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So we start every conversation off with the question. And that question is, what is good? What is good for you right now? What is good that you see in the world? What's good in your body. However you wanna take it. What's good, Nina?
Nina Simons:
Nature's capacity to heal and regenerate It's really good. It heals she heals me all the time, and She's my go to source for stabilizing and remembering, and I'm so so grateful for her love and support.
Amanda Aminata:
Me too. Honestly.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. Right? No matter what happens, she's there.
Amanda Aminata:
They and, you know, wow. What it was so hard before I had that appreciation of nature as she is there waiting for me to tune in, tap in.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. I remember as a little kid, I grew up in New York City. And it was only about a block or a block and a half from Central Park, and that was where I went for comfort and for solace when I needed it, which was often. And, you know, so I learned that young even though it was a city.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah. Well, Central Park is huge. Yeah. It
Nina Simons:
is. And it's got great trees.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. But the funny we have something about Central Park in Common because I grew up in New York also.
Nina Simons:
Oh.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. But my memory of Central Park was actually one of stress. Because when I was a little little girl, I got lost in Central Park.
Nina Simons:
Oh, wow.
Amanda Aminata:
Can you imagine, like, when I was around 3? And and who knows how long I was truly lost. But in my mind, I was lost, and it seemed huge. And I didn't think about that memory until you just brought up that's where you went as a little girl for solace.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. Oh, that must have been so scary, Anita. Mhmm. You know? My other my other little girl memory of Central Park is that One day, I took all of the stuffed animals from my bed, and I brought them to the park in a shopping bag, and I put them in a tree. And then I left them there to give them their freedom and came home. My parents, of course, were completely freaked out. And by the time I got back to the park, they were all gone with new homes. So, you know yeah.
Nina Simons:
I've been a liberator a long
Amanda Aminata:
time. I was just gonna say, it seems like your your your pioneering work started a long, long, long time ago. And for those of you who don't know yet, Nina Simons is a cofounder of Bioneers, which we'll get into a in a little bit. But I wanna get back to that impulse to take your stuffed animals out of your home and to place them in trees. Like, how old were you when you did that?
Nina Simons:
I'm not sure. Maybe 4 or 5. I don't know. Something like that. I was pretty small.
Amanda Aminata:
Wow. And your parents somehow let you go to Central Park by yourself?
Nina Simons:
Yeah. I had a lot of freedom. You know? It was one of the great things about growing up in New York. And I'm not sure, honestly, Aminita. I could have been 6 or 7? I I'm not sure.
Amanda Aminata:
But still, that's yeah. That's still really young. So the with with this and I think this is a generational thing. You know, it is New York is also kids tend to have to grow up, be a little bit more independent earlier than I think in, more suburban or maybe not rural places. But would you have would this have been in the sixties that you were doing this? Yeah.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. It would have been in the early sixties. And so it was not as dangerous probably as it might have been when you were there. Mhmm. Yeah.
Amanda Aminata:
Mhmm. Which would have been the seventies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So isn't it I mean, not to belabor this point, but isn't it wild how here I am in my late fifties.
Amanda Aminata:
Here you are in your late whatever it is. And we were both
Nina Simons:
Yeah.
Amanda Aminata:
And and we're both we have that park. You know, we have that early childhood experience in common.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. Sweet.
Amanda Aminata:
One of the reasons why I wanted to interview you is because I heard you interviewed on another podcast, awarepreneurs. And at the very end, the the host Paul Zelliger said, Nina. What's one thing that you would recommend that people do or if there's 1 thing you wanna leave people with? And you said, get a species mentor. And then you went on to explain what that is. So tell us what a species mentor is.
Nina Simons:
Well, Anita, I am a very eclectic explorer. So I get guidance from a lot of different sources. And, in this instance, at the very beginning of the pandemic, I got guidance to listen in nature for a species to be my mentor. And to then study that species Through however long. You know? I did it for a good year. And, I went out. I live at the edge of a national forest, So I'm very lucky to be surrounded by nature. And at first, I thought, oh, it'll probably be a pro because I always talk to the crows, and they talk back to me.
Nina Simons:
But I really was listening, and, It was a plant that reached out to me. A very unusual plant that's endemic to this region in Northern New Mexico In the high desert, and it's called Apache Plume. And it's really beautiful, but very strange. And, So I just got it that I needed to learn about this plant and from it. And I observed it through a year of seasons. And, I found that even though we're in a 100 year drought out here, That plant is proliferating across the landscape like nobody else, and it's got a quality of fertility and resilience. It has these very unusual seed heads that look sort of like Cyndi Lauper's hair. They're like puffy pink, you know, plumes.
Nina Simons:
And and, and so as a result, when the wind comes, It scatters the seeds all around it. And so it tends to grow, like, in bunches or in lines. And And when the seed heads are done blooming, then it looks like it's spiky, but it's actually really soft. But it looks spiky so birds don't land on it. It just has all these really interesting adaptations. And And so, that's what I meant by let a species mentor select you. And And, you know, I find I mean, I'm recently getting over a weird condition called lichen planus. And it's got me learning all about lichen because lichen are amazing.
Nina Simons:
Yes. And who right? So, I'm just constantly learning from and with nature and really turning to her as my teacher Mhmm. Rather than a resource.
Amanda Aminata:
Key Chelsea with that plant again?
Nina Simons:
Yes. It's called Apache Plume. In fact, I can change my background and show you what it looks like.
Amanda Aminata:
Music. Yeah.
Nina Simons:
Hold on. Okay. Let's see. So How quick I can do it.
Amanda Aminata:
So for all the so for all the people who are listening to the podcast, you're gonna have to switch over to YouTube to get a little picture of this Apache plume. And I see it, Nina. ICIC. What it looks like. And you know what's interesting? It looks a little bit like it could be in water. The way it's, it has these filaments kinda waving. Wow. Wow.
Nina Simons:
It's a little bit like a jellyfish in the
Amanda Aminata:
air. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So how does a girl
Nina Simons:
pretty Sorry.
Amanda Aminata:
No. No. Say that.
Nina Simons:
I said, this is in its pretty phase. It's not always so beautiful. Mhmm. But it's magical.
Amanda Aminata:
Right. And so you spent an entire year kinda working with this plant, watching it through its many phases.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. And Trying to understand what it had to teach me.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. So I wanna know. Can you tell me 1 or 2 things that you learned?
Nina Simons:
Well, I learned that sometimes it's useful to show, reveal your full beauty, And sometimes it's useful to, to have camouflage. Right?
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah.
Nina Simons:
And I learned that fertility is something to be prized. Right? Whether it's a fertility of ideas or cross pollination or and I learned that Growing in community is a great resource, for all of us. And I learned that, you know, looking spiky can be useful if you wanna deter somebody. Right?
Amanda Aminata:
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, as you speak, I'm reminded of, this idea of not being dogmatic. You know, sometimes when you if you like, I'll speak about myself. I'm a Virgo, and I have a social justice kinda background. And that that can lead me towards dogmatism. It can lead me toward what's the right way. I'm going that way and I'm holding my ground.
Amanda Aminata:
But if you look at the natural world, as you said, even at this plant, it's constantly shifting. And sometimes, it is useful to camouflage. Yeah. Sometimes you don't need to be seen.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. It's so true.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah. So so you've got, like, a a decade on me in terms of, chronological age. And I wonder, like, for you, have you noticed yourself going through seasons of, you know, being seen or not being choosing not to be seen or you know?
Nina Simons:
Absolutely. That's a great question. You know, what I've noticed, Amanita, so I'm 66.
Amanda Aminata:
Call me Aminata.
Nina Simons:
And Aminata. I'm sorry.
Amanda Aminata:
That's okay.
Nina Simons:
Aminata. Thanks. Yeah. What I've noticed is that The first thing that became clear to me after turning 60 was that I was less concerned about what other people think.
Amanda Aminata:
Mhmm.
Nina Simons:
You know, and I could really shed another layer of that conditioning. And, I mean, I, like you, have a really strong justice orientation, and I think I'm more aware of how our identities tend to shape us and how We have the opportunity to cultivate or shed, you know, conditioned responses. I mean, I've been investigating my own white privilege and white supremacy conditioning for a long time. And and I had this revelation with a hairdresser recently because I was talking to her about what it feels like to go gray. And she said she said, it's especially hard for people who have been pretty privileged. And it had never occurred to me to to recognize, oh my gosh. Right? I mean, that's a that's a privilege that I am completely unaware of. Yeah.
Nina Simons:
So yeah. It's changing me a lot. And I feel like I'm in the middle of a transformative process to grow into my next phase of life. Mhmm. And some of it involves slowing down, of course. Yeah. You know? Right? And giving myself permission to rest more so than I ever have And, being more deliberate about my choices because I realized part of my conditioning has been To wanna say yes to almost any request that comes my way.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes.
Nina Simons:
Can't do that anymore. Uh-uh. They ain't working.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah. And and I I just wanna high five you on that. You know, because sometimes when I feel like I've I have to say yes because I don't wanna disappoint somebody. Yeah. Or I don't want to, seem to not care. You know, or I don't wanna seem to not be living up to my values. You know what I mean? These are the things that have push my buttons to make me, say yes when maybe the season is slow. You know?
Nina Simons:
Yep. And I'm not a Virgo, but I have a lot of planets in the 6th house, which is the Virgo house. And so I'm very oriented towards service. And, you know, you just can't serve everybody's needs. You gotta and Bringing my own needs for equilibrium and self care up to a up to a balance is a priority now more than it's ever been in my life.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. And I don't want I don't want younger women who are not in their fifties or who not in their sixties or seventies. I I really just wanna give you permission now. You know what I mean?
Nina Simons:
Yes.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. Because away with Yes. And especially with women who are in those childbearing or child rearing younger children years. I mean, I know it's just like there's a lot of internalized pressure that, you know, am I in my worthwhile if I'm not out here, you know, burning it, giving it in a public way, in a more you know, in the collective realm or if I'm more family focused or if I have a sick person, my body has a chronic illness.
Nina Simons:
Absolutely. And you know what I've been finding, even though I'm childless by choice, that all the women I know who've had kids, Like, it's one of the greatest acts of leadership I've ever seen is raising a child. And especially in this day and age where Half the women I know are working full time jobs and raising children. And, like, excuse me, if that isn't a recipe for exhaustion, I mean, crazy stuff.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah.
Nina Simons:
So I so agree with you.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah. It's just been. But like you said, you know, it's taken me a while to, get to this point. And, and I think one of those actually, speaking of species mentors, one of the things that slowed me down were trees. Uh-huh. Yes. Giving permission and asking for attention.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. Yeah. I've had a wonderful experience with a tree, near my home because We live with a constant awareness of wildfire danger. And there was a huge wildfire, the biggest in New Mexico's history a year or 2 ago. And I reached out to a friend who's done a lot of studying with a Peruvian practitioner. And I said, can you teach me something that can help protect our home? And she said, yeah. Make an altar around a tree that you love. And that became my practice.
Nina Simons:
Mhmm. You know? Putting flowers around the base of the tree and feeding it with water and sometimes with wine and with prayer And sending the prayer down into its roots and up into its branches. And, you know, what I found was that It really helped me feel the kind of sacredness that indigenous people feel in relationship to the land that holds us that I've always admired, but never quite felt so much before. So that's another practice that I would hardly recommend to anybody. It's just beautiful.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah. You know, I, I love
Nina Simons:
Can't hear you.
Amanda Aminata:
So, Nina, I definitely wanna talk about your book. But what you've just said makes me think of this poem by Aurora Levins Morales. And it's about the grandmothers, 10,000 grandmothers coming to her in in a dream and how the grandmother at the end of the poem, she says and and what they're saying is they need the rest of us to come. And I feel like I feel like what you did when you when you followed through on this advice with that offering around the tree and feeding it with your prayers, your intention, wine, whatever flower whatever else you gave it. That just feels like grandmother. It's dumb. You know? That feels like you you kinda you moved yourself into the realm of elder when you started that practice. Yeah.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. I mean, really, I've just been feeling more and more called to deepen my own relationship to the invisible world. And I think it's something that can strengthen all of us if we choose it.
Amanda Aminata:
Mhmm. You know? Mhmm.
Nina Simons:
Especially in this time. So wacky.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. Yes. I, I'm gonna switch your book not switch. I'm gonna turn our attention to your book, Nature, Culture, and the Sacred, A Woman Listens for Leadership. So this is called Nature, Culture, and the Sacred, a woman listens for leadership. So I have a few questions about it because I loved it, and my friend Rachel Bagby appears in your book. So
Nina Simons:
Rachel. Rachel is my teaching partner. I adore Rachel.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. Clearly. But, you know, in line with what we were just talking about with you making that altar to the tree in your backyard and you saying spending more putting more attention into the invisible world. Tell me about like, if you were to say, okay. Here's where Nina is today, but, you know, 10 years ago, where was she on the spectrum of, you know, nature and the sacred?
Nina Simons:
Oh, gosh. Wow. 10 years ago. You know, I've my journey has been Evolving for some time here like all of us, I imagine. And 10 years ago, I was more single focused on strengthening and liberating the leadership of women and girls. I was doing that partly in a partnership with Rachel Bagby and others, and I was leading retreats. And I think my discovery about how my identity, as a woman was affecting my life led me to this really long involved inquiry into the nature of leadership and how we're all changing it. And and then I started working with a lot of diverse women and girls and realizing that all of us, myself included, Came to that work saying, oh, I'm not a leader.
Nina Simons:
And so, you know, how we're reinventing and redefining leadership Was very important to me 10 years ago. And in the last 10 years, I would say that my, My commitment and my engagement with racial equity and justice has deepened profoundly. I've really been on a on a steep learning curve, which I imagine I will be on till I die, About what that means and how to be a good ally. And and especially in the last 5 years and since turning 60, My exploration into the invisible world and how to deepen my own practices And my own relationship to ancestors, to, dreams, to intuition, all those things has really deepened. So that's how I would kind of describe my journey thus far. And, you know, and the book kind of traces that arc, really.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah.
Nina Simons:
Because of the first what happened in making the book was that, I write a talk for the Bioneers Conference each year. And each year, it's kind of a huge deal for me because I feel like, Who am I to spend 15 minutes? You know? What do I have to offer the world that's gonna matter and help? You know? And And it really makes me come to grips with all my self worth issues and all that. And, and so, A lot of the chapters in the book are actually from talks that I wrote over the years. And, And the 3rd section of the book is really where culture and spirit get woven in and the racial equity and justice pieces Become much more obvious and evident. So Mhmm. And and I think the other thing that I would say is, Beth, my focus on women has expanded to being a focus on everybody. Yeah. Because Because, you know, we all need to strengthen the feminine within us.
Nina Simons:
And, And and we need to strengthen it. Lock your door. I can't. And Hang on one sec. I have to put a big rock in front of my door because my dog hit.
Amanda Aminata:
So before you pick up where you left, Alnina, I just wanna say, we live in the world where we have dogs, we have toddlers, we have partners who don't know what we're doing. Right? And that's just part of the that's just part of the web of our lives. So
Nina Simons:
So true.
Amanda Aminata:
I just was cracking up. Listen, you try to tell these people around here, listen. I'm in a podcast.
Nina Simons:
I love I love how you wove in your husband's beautiful violin, this is the violinist daughter. Thank you.
Amanda Aminata:
Aw. You're welcome. So you were saying that right now, you're, like Yeah. Thinking about everybody. You used to just be on girls and women, and then you've ex expanded.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. And, you know, what I've realized is, There's your dog. What I've realized is that men in this country, especially, but maybe in the whole world, are kind of in a world of hurt right now. And and it's partly because the archetypal feeling has been so twisted, but it's partly because the feminine has been so repressed in not only in us as individuals, But in the whole society, in our organizations, in our businesses, and in our governance. So I I actually am feeling like I gotta take the message bigger, broader because while we need women in leadership, we need everybody in leadership right now.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. And we need the feminine. As you said, that feminine principle, in leadership. So and that also to me is another thing about the grandmothers. You you know, as you level up or you up level, you know, things start to shift in terms of, like, who all that you are, mentoring or gathering, you know, or feeding.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. Well and and the growing sense that, You know, I don't know how much time I have left.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes.
Nina Simons:
But I do have a really strong drive to give this magnificent world the best of whatever I got.
Amanda Aminata:
Okay. So we're gonna take a a a little break there, and then we're gonna come back and talk about racial equity. And we are back with Nina Simons, cofounder of Bioneers and the author of Nature, Culture, and the Sacred, A Woman Listens for Leadership. So, Nina, as I said, my friend, Rachel Bagby, who is your co teacher and friend as well, appears in this book. And I was it was such a surprise to me. I didn't know what she was doing these days. But one of the things that really struck me about this was when you and Rachel you you tell the story of when you and Rachel were convening groups of women, from various racial groups. And, and you were having breakdowns.
Amanda Aminata:
Like, somehow, with each group, there was this what seemed to be a common purpose, but then you couldn't get past, distrust. Distrust of you, distrust of the of the the sponsor of the com of the of the group, of the foundations. You know, there's a lot of pain out there. And, so I want you to speak to that a little bit, like, what you see is different now, like, what you learned from those early efforts to convene people. I should for those of you who can't see it, she just sighed. Just 1 or 2 things, Nina. You don't Every Day. I know that's probably a whole another book.
Amanda Aminata:
But, you know, what what what stays with you from that? And, and and, and I'll just say this. I really appreciated how one of the things that you said was that when you're bringing people from different backgrounds together, especially people from oppressed or marginalized groups, in order for them or us to not feel oppressed and marginalized inside of the com the group that you convene them into, there have to be enough. There have to be a critical mass so that people feel flanked enough to be themselves and to feel like they have some safety. And I would say also to feel like they have some space to be different. Yeah. Because, you know, we can go a little bit more into that. But let's start with what it was like for you, you know, those moments of breakdown and and what you what you've taken away from those experiences.
Nina Simons:
You know, it's a great question, Aminata. And there's so many things. There's 1 whole chapter of the book where Rachel and I convened a group of very skillful facilitators To surface all the lessons we could about how to convene diverse groups in a good way. And that's all in the book, which I was really happy and honored to share.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. And I love that. I really love that, and I appreciate it. And for all the facilitators in our audience, I really do recommend this book if only for that chapter. If you're used to convening groups or you have some some fear about facilitating, I recommend this.
Nina Simons:
Well and what you were referring to, Aminata, is like, I learned that from a a book called Women Take the Lead By Linda Tarwehlin, that until you have at least 30% of any marginalized Or or, you know, any marginalized group, then people don't feel flanked enough To feel safe. But also, you know, we we did exercises that have to do with introducing yourself to each other through all your identities. Because, you know, there's so much that's packed into those identities That's some of it conscious, some of it less conscious. And the more we can make it conscious and name it, the more useful It is. And the more kind of brave people can become because we are not our identities. I mean, in a way we are, And we're so much bigger than our identities. And recognizing that there is, learning that comes with those identities that we can choose to shed or to cultivate, You know, gives us a great deal more freedom in how we become who we were meant to be. Mhmm.
Nina Simons:
So that's that's one thing. And also, you know, there's a a wonderful quote that I remind myself of regularly from Melodoma Soma, who said, right, who said, conflict is relationship's way of asking you to go deeper. And so many of us have conditioned responses about turning away from conflict and avoiding it.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes.
Nina Simons:
But When it comes up in a group, it's really important to turn towards it. And and it's a way, you know, For people who either have passed as white or are white, it's a way for them to exercise what I've heard called discomfort resilience
Amanda Aminata:
Mhmm.
Nina Simons:
Which is, I think, one of the things we really need to strengthen in ourselves. Like, what about that?
Amanda Aminata:
Right? Period. I mean Yeah. Think about it. You know? For me, this this comfort resilience, if she just came up in a very yoga workshop. We're doing some eye gazing, and my partner was very uncomfortable.
Nina Simons:
She
Amanda Aminata:
was so uncomfortable that I noticed I started to lose my breath. I started to get uncomfortable, and I even thought, do I need to get up and go tell the instructor that this person's uncomfortable? You know what I mean? So discomfort resilience, like being grounded and balanced in the face of someone else's discomfort. Wow. Yes. For my own discomfort. In that case, it was someone else's discomfort.
Nina Simons:
Well and that comes from I wanna give credit where credit is due. That Comes from a woman named Camila Majied, m a j I e d. And she does this beautiful diversity work, called prosocial behavior. And she talks about how there are 3 pillars of prosocial behavior. And one of them is discomfort resilience, and one of them is fierce compassion. And the third is cultural humility, which is so good, you know, and so necessary. So Those are some of the lessons that I've gleaned from lots of years. And I have to say, Aminata, that, you know, my My focus and drive to learn about how to convene diverse groups well Comes from my experience with nature.
Nina Simons:
You know, from learning from having helped launch a seed company that was all about biodiversity and learning from the natural world that ecosystems that are rich in diversity Rebound much more quickly after trauma than a monoculture. And so I was like, oh, well, we're an ecosystem. Of course, the same is true for us. Anything that's true for nature. So that was like, this is really important. I just got Set on that path really early on.
Amanda Aminata:
Mhmm. And when I think about, you know, what we can learn from nature in terms of, racial justice or equity inclusion work. I think of, it's like the foundation. Truly, the foundation with nature is what you said at the very beginning. You can go out and find somebody who loves you. Yeah. Like, you don't have to be good enough. You don't have to get the terms right.
Amanda Aminata:
You don't have to recognize your privilege. You don't have to I mean, well, you can we just show up and and just let your let something in that wants to hold you. And, and, you know, remember that with all the the challenges and the discomfort that that comes through it. You know? We're we're still we're still part of an ecosystem. Yeah. And even if we don't like each other, even if we don't think we can actually create this multiracial democracy that we want. We're still in it. We're I mean, you know, there's no pulling out of the ecosystem.
Amanda Aminata:
So it's almost like, wow. So how do we be in it and and stay patient and breathing and, you said cultural humility. Maybe it's humble about ourselves.
Nina Simons:
Yeah. And curious.
Amanda Aminata:
Curious. You know?
Nina Simons:
And turning towards difference as a virtue, not a challenge. Right? And I love how you said that. That was beautiful, Aminata, Because for me, I think I hear a lot of, white people talk about diversity work, and they talk about the hardship and the challenges, But I don't hear enough from people talking about once you get through the hardship and the challenges, The experience of beloved community is so heavenly that why would you choose anything else? Right? I mean And that's I mean, to me, it's nectar. You know? Yeah.
Amanda Aminata:
Wow. I love that. To you, it's nectar. Yeah. So there's like a pleasure driver, not just a Yeah. You should driver.
Nina Simons:
Night, Zack.
Amanda Aminata:
And and both are probably necessary. I was listening to Valerie Currer, and she was talking about, sweet labor. Love is sweet labor. Like, sometimes you you just gotta do the labor. You just gotta wipe up the mess when the cater threw up, not because you feel like it or because you love them in that moment. Yeah. And so there is that labor, you know, good and bad. You just gotta show up.
Amanda Aminata:
But but we But wow. We do need that nectar. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, did any of us just show up here just to be working it hard. You know? I mean, to just endure.
Nina Simons:
Well and it's one of the things that I love that I've learned From my indigenous mentors is they say the creator put us here to celebrate life. And I wanna celebrate while I do the work, And I agree. I mean, you know, one of the things about racial equity work that I refer to often is I heard Van Jones say once that doing this work is like walking through a room full of garden rakes. Because you can't walk through the room without stepping on a rake and getting whacked in your head. And it's true. You know? But so what? Right? None nobody died from getting whacked in the head by a garden rake. So there we go. Uh-oh.
Nina Simons:
So sorry.
Amanda Aminata:
That's okay. If you put your put yourself on mute for a minute. So we're gonna take another break and come right back. So Nina, I wonder if you could say a little bit more about cultural humility. Like, what that means to you now?
Nina Simons:
Yeah. Well, it's a great question. Let's see. The first thing that comes to mind has to do with my own reckoning With being a product of a culture that has white supremacy embedded in it. And I remember when I first heard that phrase, I remember kinda going, oh, really? And But I've been in a long inquiry and dance with it. And I've realized, you know, it's real. And even though My background is as a Jewish person, which feels to me like I pass for white, not that I'm born white exactly. But but there there is, there is real assumption and implicit bias that I have discovered in myself that, you know, in a room full of mixed race people, I'll often see the white folks speaking up first and loudest, for instance, or thinking they know the answers Without having curiosity and and exhibiting respect for other people.
Nina Simons:
And And so cultural humility, you know, for me, it means don't assume that whatever you learned about your culture, Whatever you grew up with, is necessarily right or real. You know, as a Jewish person, I'm in the process of Navigating what's going on in Israel and Palestine, Gaza. And it's painful as heck, you know, and I wouldn't have said heck anywhere else. No. It really sucks, to be honest.
Amanda Aminata:
Guest.
Nina Simons:
And it's awful, and it's deeply humbling, because I have I have a cousin who lives in Israel. And, You know, they are so sure that their response is what's necessary and correct. And from my vantage point, You know, it's evidence that, when we polarize into victim and perpetrator, They're just 2 sides of the same coin. And, you know, for my people to be perpetrating this ethnic Cleansing and genocide is horrifying to me and so so painful and so humbling. So that's what I mean by it. You know, I think it's a great question, and I'm living into it all the time because I'm having new layers of it revealed to me all the time. But, you know, one of the things that I have observed, for instance, I was in a white fragility training with, mixed race folks. And what I saw was that the white folks in the room had a really hard time listening with their hearts.
Nina Simons:
They were all listening with their heads. And there were black and brown folks talking about their experience, and it was so painful That I was sitting there weeping, watching other white folks, like, rationalize and defend. And I thought, Well, there's a place where cultural humility is needed because where's your heart in this? Yes. You know? So that's The best answer I can offer at the moment.
Amanda Aminata:
Yeah. And I appreciate it. I I just wanna speak to you know, weekend I can have. I need to practice cultural humility too because it's like being willing to investigate what I don't see normally. You know what I mean? And, you know, I think what you said about the courage it takes to live in your heart, especially in the face of exactly what you're talking about, what's going on in Gaza right now. I mean, it's so much it feels so much safer to stay in your mind about it. Yeah. So I think the willingness to go to the heart level is that is what the grandmothers can bring.
Amanda Aminata:
You know? Yeah. Is that willingness, the the resolution to stay in our hearts. Yeah. You know, and I and I, so I hope that all of us can come from there and stay there, not let other people take us into rationalization. And it's many sided, guy. You know? Like you said, so how quickly perpetrators become victims and victims be I mean, you know? Wow. You could just You
Nina Simons:
know, the hurt people hurt people. There it is.
Amanda Aminata:
There it is again and again and again. And
Nina Simons:
you know And if we don't if we don't manage to shift the cycle of revenge Yeah. Frankly, we're screwed, you know. Yes. It's can't can't go on.
Amanda Aminata:
Yes. Yes. And that's where, you know, you talk about, honoring the feminine in all of us. Yeah. Honoring the feminine in all of us. You know, what does that feminine in each of us say? Whose children are these children?
Nina Simons:
Yeah. You
Amanda Aminata:
know? And if we listen to the feminine in all of us, you know, or to the earth mother. You know, which of us is not her children? So thank you so much. So that humility we start off by talking about your plant mentor and how they guided you. For over a year, you learned about camouflaging and, you know, changing your appearance and, you know, all of that. So, Nina, thank you for your longevity and your resilience, your commitment. Thank you.
Nina Simons:
Oh, it's my honor. You know? And I I feel like We all come into our flourishing at different phases in our lives. And I'm a Capricorn, so I was a late bloomer. You know? And, and it gives me great joy to be able to offer inspiration and reminders to everyone else of whatever phase you're at, it's okay. You know? I mean, I had no idea what I was supposed to become when I was in my twenties thirties, and I only started to explore in my forties. And So it takes whatever time it takes. And, you know, we learn from nature. Things are ripe when they're ripe and not before and not after.
Amanda Aminata:
Okay. I wait. Now now you wanna start us on a whole another interview Nina, Simon, but we're gonna leave it right there. You are great where you are. Appreciate the moment, the season you're in right now.
Nina Simons:
Yeah.
Amanda Aminata:
Alright. Peace and love, everybody. See you next time. Oh, Nina. If people wanna follow you or stay in touch with you, where do they go?
Nina Simons:
Thanks so much for that, Aminata. Oh, there are lots of places they can go. Well, Bioneers .org is a great resource that I would recommend for everybody With wonderful podcasts and videos and all that. If you wanna read the introduction to my book for free, You can go to Bioneers .org backslash, n c s book. That's nature, culture, and the sacred book. If you want to check out where I'm doing online teaching, that would be at Bioneers Learning, or Nina simons.com. All of those things.
Amanda Aminata:
Beautiful. And I will be sure to put them in the show notes. Alright. Piece, everybody.
