#2-012: From Super Model to Modern Mystic: How to Make Big Changes with a Small Shift in your Trajectory

I can’t wait for you to hear this two-part conversation with former super model and modern day mystic, Dr. Anna Gatmon.

In part one we discuss Anna’s journey as an ugly duckling with a learning disability and painful family secrets that made her question her intelligence and her value.

Discovered in a Swedish drugstore as a teen, Anna went on to become an international model sensation.  But she ultimately left the world of fashion for spiritual callings that included a stay at the Findhorn community in Scotland and now four books.

Anna shares with us hard won wisdom on: 

How to avoid collapsing into your trauma story

How to make a one degree shift to change the trajectory of your whole life

4 Keys to Spiritual and Material wholeness

This is an inspiring conversation on finding wholeness and creating positive change, one degree at a time.

You’ll want to listen to the whole interview because Anna shares an inspiring story of a rescue Dog who shows how you can lure your most wounded parts into the light.  

Anna’s Bio:

A former fashion model, Anna Gatmon, PhD, describes herself as a catalyst of transformation and spiritual guide. An engaging speaker with a unique life story, Anna has spent the last two decades on an inner quest into the workings of our world, the nature of reality, the significance of living through the current turbulent times, and the nature of suffering and transformation.

For more on Anna go to her website: annagatmon.com

TRANSCRIPT (Part One)

Aminata Desert Rose:
Welcome. This is Aminata, Desert Rose Plant Walker firewoman, and I'm here with my special guest today, Anna Gottman. So, Anna, we started your show by looking at what is good. So tell me for you today, what is good?

Anna Gatmon:
What is good?

Aminata Desert Rose:
What is good?

Anna Gatmon:
You are good. You are good. I am good. We are each a force for good.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
And we are in this place where we get to choose. Mhmm. There's a saying, some rabbi in Judaism that we each hold the balance of the world in our hands, And with every act, we can choose good or evil.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
So we are good.

Aminata Desert Rose:
With every act

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
We can choose good or evil. So what makes you choose good, Anna?

Anna Gatmon:
You know, it is an interesting question because I think the essence of our soul for each one of us is good. Our highest self, our divine self, our inner being, whatever you call that, is good. And when we act in alignment with our higher self, our inner being, what we do is good in the world and we we we bless the world and we create wholeness in the world. It is when we are not in alignment and integrity with our higher self that we don't do good. And so if I'm triggered, I'm triggered by something, Someone says something, I might see something in the news, or it might be something that a friend says, and suddenly I'm triggered. And so then I'm in trauma or I'm in a wound, I'm in a reactive mode, that's when I risk not doing good and being good, and we all have that. And I see life as a spiritual practice, and the spiritual practice is to notice those places when we lose connection to our highest inner being and we're triggered, and then we become reactive, and we become reactive in different ways. And then when nations become reactive cause there's trauma, then we end up with world wars, right, and genocide and racism and sexism and child trafficking.

Anna Gatmon:
I mean, it's just, you know, the whole gamut and and and the earth and pillaging the earth. And so I feel like that's when we're connected to our higher self, our sacred inner being, we will only do good and it will be win win for everyone, whatever we do. It will all be about creativity, self expression, self realization. And when we're off that, that's when we lose connection. We lose our humanity. And we each do it in our world with the people that we're close to, and then we see it in our neighborhoods and on the other side of the planet.

Aminata Desert Rose:
That's right. On on the international level and global levels. Yeah. Well well, let's let's let's let's bring it maybe a little more personal because at this point, you know, you're in a in a, you know, you're in a certain decade of your life. I would call you a queen. You know? You're in in and and so you didn't start off where you are now. Certainly, you've been on some kind of journey to get here. Right? Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. And so I love to hear a little bit about how you got to this very settled space. This very I don't know. I I feel your energy is it's just settled. So tell me about the Anna Gottman before she got so settled when maybe she was

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
You know, being a supermodel out there in the world. Right. Tell us a little bit about

Anna Gatmon:
that. So I'll say that there's this I I I am settled, and I'm also very fiery in a different times because it's just my personality is fiery also. And so so I have both of those. Mhmm. And I need to learn to balance them, but also be settled within my fieriness and within my fierceness to be settled. It's not about just being sometimes there's this idea that spirituality is about compassion and inner peace and just being very quiet with a voice and very much like this, and we need more than that in the world. We need advocates who are are are are gonna stand up for what we care for.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
And for that, you need fire and you need fierceness.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
So so so it's important to to stay settled, but not in this, you know, we might imagine a monk in a meditation center. It's like, how can you stay settled while you're fierce at the same time? I think that that is has been my journey to accept my fieriness that can burn me and can burn others and less so these days than in my early days, but also how to be settled in the fieriness.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Well, let me ask you this.

Anna Gatmon:
Some people think devotion to what we care for. But yes.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Well, some people think the fire comes out of wounding. Because you said earlier, you said, well, when we come from our highest self, that's when we're gonna come to a win win.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
And some people might say, well, the fire comes out of the wound. It comes out of the hurt. Tell me about that.

Anna Gatmon:
So if we're talking earth practices, the elements, fire is the element of transformation. When there is heat, when there is fire, there is aliveness, there is transformation. So it is an essential element in our practice and it's not about wounding. We could be we could be in pain, we could be aching when we see suffering and when he touches something that maybe we've experienced something similar to it. But fire is what's gonna get us going to say, not on my watch. Right? Not in my name. It's not okay. What's going on? It takes fire to say that, but you can still say it with love or with tears in your heart.

Anna Gatmon:
Mhmm. So that's the distinction.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. I'm so glad you said that about it being a fundamental element. You know? So it's it's nothing to I mean, I think it's definitely something to respect to work with carefully.

Anna Gatmon:
It's a powerful all the elements of the cards all of them are very, very powerful.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes. All of them are

Anna Gatmon:
very powerful.

Aminata Desert Rose:
But fire is, like, quick. It is quick.

Anna Gatmon:
Flood, imagine it's tsunami. That's water. That's really quick too.

Aminata Desert Rose:
That's true. That's true.

Anna Gatmon:
And a hurricane is quick too. If so all the elements can be, you know, pastoral, beautiful, summer day or spring day, and they can be a force that, you know, we have no chance against. So they they each have that, and I think there's there is danger in in wanting that spirituality be something very stifled and stale and peaceful, and I realized that my hands are even doing

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
This gesture each time, and then turning it into, okay, we all have to be peaceful. Will you just unsettle my peacefulness? And and suddenly would become bitter that someone is unsettling our peacefulness because we're trying to stay peaceful because that's the ultimate thing. It's like, no. How can you walk in the world and hurt and be angry and yet be peaceful and resolve that what you are going to do is important and it's worthwhile? So that's for you. Different place.

Aminata Desert Rose:
So for you, that's the the use the channeling of the fire is to resolve and find the place where you're going to, Chris, stand or create.

Anna Gatmon:
Yes.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. Okay. Alright. Interesting.

Anna Gatmon:
But I didn't start out that way, which is what you asked me. Right? So you know what? I started out a very joyful child.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
I love to sing and I'd love to dance and so a lot of joy. And I also grew up, if I ever write my memoir, my biography, my first sentence is going to be, I grew up into I I I was born into a life of extremes. And so while I had this essence of joy, I grew up with a stutter, a severe stutter, undiagnosed learning challenges, an alcoholic mom, a raging dad. You know, there was always there was also a lot of love. It's not just that, but those were the traumas. Yeah. And and the undiagnosed learning challenges in school became a very significant trauma for me. And so this is and red hair and freckles, which were not popular and add to that the stutter.

Anna Gatmon:
And I grew up I I was born and raised in Israel, and my mother wasn't Jewish. So that was a secret that I I kept until I left Israel. So I lived with a secret.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
So all of these things were part of my childhood. And then I ended up my parents divorced, and my mom went back to Sweden for a treatment for her alcoholism because she was Swedish.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And I ended up, you know, low self esteem, self loathing, thought I was stupid because I didn't I did finish high school, but I, you know, thought of myself as stupid. I swore I'd never go back to school. Here I am with a doctorate, but I swore

Aminata Desert Rose:
I'd never go back to school.

Anna Gatmon:
I swore I'd never go back. I was due into the military service, which is mandatory for women in Israel, and my dad had been a pilot, and, I grew up to you know, with values of being a patriot and giving back to your country, that your country gives to you, you have to give back to your country. That's how I grew up. Mhmm.

Aminata Desert Rose:
And

Anna Gatmon:
there I was, finished high school. I had 6 months to go into the military service, and I visited my mom in Sweden. And I was sitting with a friend who was in line at the pharmacy in Sweden. I had this big blue sweater hiding behind a a redhead bush and and and in a big sweater, and this older woman was staring at me and made me uncomfortable. At some point, she comes to me, and she says, would you like to work as a fashion model and travel the world?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Wait. So you're at a coffee shop, and then someone steps up and asks you that question?

Anna Gatmon:
I'm at a pharmacy. Oh, a pharmacy. Not even a coffee shop. My friend is she she has a number. She's standing in line to buy something, and I'm just waiting for her on the bench. And this lady sitting to my left, staring at me and says, do you wanna work as a fashion model and travel the world?

Aminata Desert Rose:
And what was your answer?

Anna Gatmon:
You know, it's interesting. I because my dad was a pilot, then I had traveled the world. I mean, not all of it, but but I had traveled, so that didn't impress me. It wasn't like, okay. Fashion model seems so out of place with my internal experience of myself. And she gave me her card, and she expected me to call her as soon as I came home because that's what the girls usually did. They'd call, and I didn't call because I somehow thought she was gonna call me. So after 3 days, she called me and said, are you not interested? I said, I am.

Anna Gatmon:
I just expected you to call. And in the meantime, my mom, I told her, and she had heard about her. So she was a well known scout for John Casablancas, who created Elite Model Management. He's passed away since, but Elite is obviously well known. And so, know, 2 months later, I I met John, and he said, you have a specific look that will either work immediately or will never work, so come to Paris for 2 weeks. And I went to Paris for 2 weeks against the instructions of my dad, who was really scared for me that I'd be kidnapped and god knows what, and I never looked back. I moved to Paris. I I was on the cover of 16 magazine after two and a half weeks, and I worked for Elle magazine after a month.

Anna Gatmon:
And it I just shot straight up, and it was like, how did Cinderella become a fashion model in Paris? So there I was doing that while my internal experience was still one of of, you know, everything I shared before.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
But it allowed me to have a new environment and to start valuing myself that I actually had value.

Aminata Desert Rose:
A new context.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
So tell me about the military service. Weren't you still required, or did you get exempted? I was.

Anna Gatmon:
No. I I ended up so from men are required no matter what, but women get exempted if they get married. And so I I I I can admit now it was more of a secret before I I got married to a friend in Sweden, and we were married for a while. And I got released from the military service, which today with my value system, I'm really glad that I ended I didn't go. But, but at the time, it was no small decision. I know that anyone listening is going, oh, well, of course, I'd pick Paris over Israel. But when your your community, your people, your tribe I mean, the Jewish people is this tribe, and we hold together, and the world is against us. I mean, I grew up on all of this.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Right.

Anna Gatmon:
And again, my dad was a pilot, and so it was like it was a big thing. I thought my whole my my friends would never speak to me again. So it was really, do I go back to my life and to the Cinderella that I was in in with my dad and his wife? It was pretty mean. And, or do I take a risk in a country I don't know, a language I don't speak, a profession that is hard, but I get my freedom, and I get and and it may seem obvious to anyone listening. It was not obvious. I tortured over it for 2 months.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. I don't think it's obvious. I think when you grow up, you've been conditioned into a certain as you said, to be a patriot and, you know, it's the Jewish people and the rest of the world. So it's like choosing, are you choosing yourself? Are you choosing your community? I could see that being a really hard choice. So you you made the choice to go with the with the supermodel career. It's just odd that the choice for you was the military or be a supermodel. Most people,

Anna Gatmon:
it was like 2 options. I know. Which is why it's a life of extreme, and I think that life has given me that because we all get these choices. People can can listen now and say, well, lucky you. I never got choices like that. But the truth is we each and I've seen it. I'm I'm I'm I'm old enough to see that everybody gets opportunities and everybody gets choices, and we're scared to take those choices because we have to lose the ground that we stand on many times. And and there's a beautiful, saying by Anrajid, in order to discover new land, we have to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

Anna Gatmon:
If you just dabble from island to island, you're you're just in the same region. But if you lose sight of the shore that is familiar to you for a long time, then you discover new land. And we all get these opportunities, all of us. It can be small. They can be big. We all get them. And I write in my latest book, shift calling, that all you need is a one degree shift and compounding over time that one degree shift, one shift in your behavior is gonna change and transform your life.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Okay. I do wanna go into your book, and, but I wanna just challenge you a little because I'm hearing 2 things at the same time. So you said, if you stay within the site of land, you're really Yeah. You're just gonna go island island. You're not really making a profound difference. But now you just said you can just make one degree.

Anna Gatmon:
Yes.

Aminata Desert Rose:
So tell us what's the

Anna Gatmon:
So I'll tell you. So there's this it's an aviation. It's the one to 60 it's it's like a rule. If if a pilot, shifts the plane, the trajectory of of a plane by 1 degree. It's very small. And if they would land immediately, that wouldn't be noticed. But if that one degree, if they continue for 10 minutes, they'll be 16 miles off course. And if they continue for a few hours, they'll end up in New York instead of in Chicago.

Anna Gatmon:
So the same so so let's take the metaphor of the ocean. Here I am in my ship. I'm only making a one degree shift. Okay? I'm not going from island to island. I'm making a one degree shift. But if I keep going away from my the familiar shore, one degree shift, I'm gonna end up in a different direction over time than if I stayed on the same course. So when I decided to be what they call in Paris a top model, I like, that didn't just fall into I mean, the the opportunity came to me, but it was daily decisions. As I said, I struggled for 2 months.

Anna Gatmon:
Should I do it? Should I not? Am I betraying my friends? Will they never speak to me? Will my dad should I go against my dad's will? It's like, am I betraying my mother? My parents were going through a bloody divorce. So am am I taking sides? I mean, all of that were the small little shift that I had to choose, and each one helped me to to end up in Paris. But so it wasn't just a a one thing. When you hear the story, it's like she was here and then she's there. Right? But it's these small shifts every day. If I tell myself, it's like, let's just start here. If I just say I am lovable. I am lovable.

Anna Gatmon:
I am precious. I don't walk. I I mean, I don't walk around saying that. But if I started now and every day I would say that, there would be shifts that would happen because the world would reorganize itself around that in a different way. And in a year, let's say, or in 3 months or in 2 weeks, I'll be in a different shore I see. In a different piece of land.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes. You know, my daughter said this when I interviewed her on the show, we were talking about the winter solstice, and she said one person can change trajectory. It's not the same thing as changing something that happened in the past, but you can change your your trajectory.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
And, and if you stay in the the space of that little decision

Anna Gatmon:
Yes.

Aminata Desert Rose:
That little I see how it accumulates.

Anna Gatmon:
It accumulates and suddenly so all you have to do is say, I am precious. I'm precious. I'm worthy of my dreams. I'm worthy of what I long for. And if you keep saying that, you you can start believing it. You can start believing it. You're gonna start taking actions and opportunities are gonna show up in your field of awareness that weren't there when you weren't saying it, when I'm not saying it. So that's the one degree shift that over time ends you up on a different piece of land in New York instead of Chicago.

Anna Gatmon:
So it's not this hard work. I need to transform. I need to do this huge thing. You need a small shift that you're willing to stay with that is suddenly you're gonna say, oh oh my god. I'm I'm seeing different land. There's a different earth that I'm walking on because I made a small shift.

Aminata Desert Rose:
So tell me about more about the field of awareness, because I think sometimes we can't even see choices depending on our awareness. Choice doesn't even occur. Right. So tell me about that.

Anna Gatmon:
You know, I I think that we need to do, you know, ask and you shall receive. Right? The words of Jesus, I believe. Right? Ask and you shall receive. I think that we need to ask, and I think that every everybody asks. Everybody's longing for something. We might not see the opportunities, but if we ask for it and we ask for it and we ask for it, if we ask so so so here it is. You need to ask, then you need to listen. If you just ask and you never listen, then you just keep repeating the belief that you don't get your your wishes met.

Anna Gatmon:
You have to ask and you have to listen. It's interesting because the 4 keys to, spiritual material wholeness, which are the content of my first book, are exactly that. 1st, you ask, the second, you need to listen. And in the listening, you'll receive an answer. And in the answer, it can come through a message, through a friend, or a movie you see in a sentence, or a song with a phrase, or an inner knowing, a gut feeling. Many times what happens at that moment, we don't take the action because the 3rd key of the the 4 keys to spiritual material, wholeness, is inspired action. So once you listen and you hear, that's where people stop. They go, oh, that can't be the answer.

Anna Gatmon:
Is that the answer? Was it my thinking? Was it my mind, or was it really? And we use that because we're scared, which I understand. You know? I've done scary things in my life. But it's the inspired action. If we stay connected to the asking and the longing and then the listening and what came, slowly, slowly, the sound of the universe or the sound of God or spirit or the goddess or earth is gonna get louder and louder and louder, but

Aminata Desert Rose:
we need to show up for our own life. Yes. I wanna say out loud, something happened to me yesterday. I woke up, and I prayed to my mother. So when I'm when I'm, like, really down, I pray to my mother. My mother passed away. And I was like and I was praying for clarity and confidence. You know? What do I do? I need help.

Aminata Desert Rose:
This is to my mother. And, I had a coaching call, you know, with the business coach, and we went into a very disruptive place for me where I couldn't see the shore. And it occurred to me in the middle of the call. Oh, wait, Amanda. You prayed for this. You asked for this, and this is what came today. Is this, you know, this disruptive thing that this person is telling you? Yeah. So, so I just wanna cosign on it.

Anna Gatmon:
Right. Asking when you're disruptive.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Listening. Like you said, expecting the looking for the answer, listening.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah. So so the 4 keys to spiritual material wholeness are expansive presence. That's the asking. And being in this expansive space and spaciousness where you can then listen. And attentive listen attentive listening is the 2nd key, and inspired action is the 3rd key. And then faithful knowing is how you walk in the world. Right? And in this moment of disruption, if we go back to your example,

Aminata Desert Rose:
so you

Anna Gatmon:
have this moment of disruption that you realize that you asked for, but I can imagine. Tell me. At that moment of disruption, you go more into your suddenly you're disconnected because you go to those places where maybe there's a trigger. There's the lonely you, the child you, what whatever messages. Right?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yep. Yeah.

Anna Gatmon:
So so it's harder from that place

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
To go, oh, I'll just keep going, but, okay, we need to go back to the wound and go, okay. Here it is again. What can I take from it again?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
How can I be tender with a wound and take something from there again in order to, you know, put it in my bag and walk as a pilgrim on on the earth on my next step as you're doing? Right? It's like there's the disruption, then there's I mean, think of the chrysalis. The chrysalis is a disruption. It's a complete meltdown. It's a complete meltdown. No caterpillar sprouts wings.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
It is a complete meltdown, and there needs to be a trust. And then the magnificent butterfly comes out. Right? So there's a place of embracing, and we all have. I mean, me, we we all have that. When we go to the meltdown, it feels like we're losing we're losing our mind.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
There's the despair. We're and and and we are because something is melting. Something that some darkness within our being where there was no light can be a hurt, a wound, the energy is stifled. Something there is opening up and saying, okay. Pay attention to me. That's what I call the shift calling you. What shift is calling you? It's that thing that's not going away right now and is telling you listen to me and it's not your enemy as we always feel it is. Our challenges are our enemies.

Anna Gatmon:
It's our biggest ally because that part is wanting to come out of the darkness and to be seen and to offer its gifts Mhmm. And its treasures. And so we just need to learn to master ourselves. I don't know master if that's a good word, but here it came out. When we are in the midst of of the pain or the despair or just triggered in, like, a second to say, oh, that's the old trigger. How can I override it? Can I share a story from from the Israeli Palestinian war right now, which is exactly about that?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
So, in the days after the October 7 event Mhmm. Hamas attacked all the, villages, outside of Aza, Gaza. There was this, police or like a squad, a military team that came with with a dog. Mhmm. And they went through from burnt house to burnt house to see if there's any survivors. And so they go from house to house, and they went into a house that was burnt down, and they saw nothing there, and they were leaving. And the dog that was with them was trained to smell, went to its trainer and asked for a treat, and put the treat in its mouth but did not eat it, and went back to the burnt house and came came back a few minutes later and asked its trainer for a second treat, Put it in its mouth, didn't eat it, and went back to the house that was burnt down. And after a few minutes came out with a wounded dog that was scared, and the dog came out with that dog.

Anna Gatmon:
Mhmm. Now I'm telling that story because think what it takes for a dog to override a reactive response to treat, oh, it's for me, and the intelligence to know that a treat gets a dog to do something, so I'll get another dog to do something with a treat. Mhmm. And then the compassion that the the dog has I mean, the evolved consciousness Mhmm. Of this dog to do that without instructions or training

Aminata Desert Rose:
ever to actually do that. Mhmm. And so for me, the connection here is at the moment of trauma, is

Anna Gatmon:
when we need to also

Aminata Desert Rose:
have our

Anna Gatmon:
observing self or our is when we need to also have our observing self or our higher self come in, because otherwise, we just collapse

Aminata Desert Rose:
Right. Right.

Anna Gatmon:
To the old story. And I do it. We all do it. Mhmm. But we need to develop the evolution of consciousness on our planet is, okay, there's the trauma. We need to acknowledge it. We need to grieve it. It's always gonna be there to an extent,

Aminata Desert Rose:
but

Anna Gatmon:
can we also have another part that's gonna bring the treat Mhmm. To the wound itself

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And lure it out.

Aminata Desert Rose:
To in yes. I see. To invite to come out of the hiding.

Anna Gatmon:
Or the darkness or the trigger that we have at this moment to invite it out into the light. Because once it's in the light, it it it has the place to share its story. The grief, the incident has the time. It can share its story. It has its wounding. It has its message. It has its protective purpose. It has gems.

Anna Gatmon:
And then we move on to to our next phase. So now we have that as a resource. So I think that that's really important to develop that extra

Aminata Desert Rose:
That capacity.

Anna Gatmon:
Capacity.

Aminata Desert Rose:
I I'm I'm with you on that. And, and it is a capacity that can be developed with use. Right?

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
With repetition. And when you know you're in your wound, you can also ask for someone to help you kinda elevate so that you can hold it rather than just be submerged by it.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.