#2-013: No More Revenge: Subtle Activism for Peace and Justice in Gaza and Israel with Anna Gatmon

In this intimate conversation, Anna Gatmon and I delve into the trauma experienced by nations, specifically Israel and Gaza, and how individuals like you and me can use to subtle activism to shift global consciousness towards peace and wholeness.

Subtle activism is all about using meditation, prayer, and focused intention to tap into the collective consciousness for guidance and then taking inspired action. It's a way of making a difference on a deeper, non-physical level.

Our conversation revolves around three questions: 

1. How do we tap into our highest selves when we're facing collective trauma, like the conflicts between Israel and Gaza?
2. What is the Gaian Experiment and how can we use our free will to foster wholeness amidst suffering and separation?
3. How can we apply subtle activism to big issues like the Middle East conflict, and how does it help in healing and transformation?

Anna’s Bio:

A former fashion model, Anna Gatmon, PhD, describes herself as a catalyst of transformation and spiritual guide. An engaging speaker with a unique life story, Anna has spent the last two decades on an inner quest into the workings of our world, the nature of reality, the significance of living through the current turbulent times, and the nature of suffering and transformation.

For more on Anna go to her website: annagatmon.com

TRANSCRIPT PART TWO

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. So that's really beautiful. You you brought up Israel and Gaza, and that's on people's minds a lot right now Yeah. As you know. And you and I talked before this call. It was really on heavy on both of our hearts.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
So when you when you think about nations having, trauma as as clear in Israel, Gaza. I mean, they're not the only nations with trauma clearly.

Anna Gatmon:
Right.

Aminata Desert Rose:
But it feels like it feels like there's something there's some work that's happening on behalf of the whole world or on human consciousness or I'm combining questions. So one question I wanted to ask you is, so when it's on a bigger level than you as a personal individual, how do you invite a group to pull out of the traumatic response to an a more elevated, connected with your higher self kind of response? How do you how do you how do you do that So ask

Anna Gatmon:
it again because I understand it, but ask it again in a different way.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. So on an you gave an example about how an individual.

Anna Gatmon:
Right.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Can connect with her highest self. Yeah. And lure out the part of her that's feeling wounded, overwhelmed, you know, traumatized. Yeah. And so I'm wondering on a group level.

Anna Gatmon:
Right.

Aminata Desert Rose:
How can.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
How can. How can we. How can you, let's say, because you're Jewish and Israeli or at least you're Israeli. I'm not sure if if you can

Anna Gatmon:
I I converted in in 30? So so I am both, and and I love and I love Christmas. I love all all Right. Rituals.

Aminata Desert Rose:
It's it's not it's not all of you, but you are both Jewish and Israeli at this moment. And you can see your people, that country Yeah. Embroiled in trauma. How would you how would you lure? How would you be what how would you lure that Yeah. To a whole different way of holding it maybe? Or how do you apply what you said to that?

Anna Gatmon:
I think you bring something that's really important that it's really hard to do on our own. It's it's very hard to do on our own, everything. And you you said before, you know, to ask for someone to support you, like you worked with a coach or you ask a friend. But to have your posse, to have your group, to have your community to do the work allows you to stabilize and become a force, a collective force versus your own madness in your head and the 2 and the 2 voices. And I think that in Israel right now, you know, from talking to friends on WhatsApp and connected with people there, they're in so much trauma and in revenge mode that that on a collective scale, it's very hard. You know, when you're that activated, there's no one to talk to. But I'm talking to friends. You know? I I I I was talking to a friend yesterday in Israel, and she's doing it by herself.

Anna Gatmon:
And I'll get to the group.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
But I just but she's holding it by herself because she's going what we're doing in Gaza is madness, and it's crazy. And yet it's so she she was just saying how hard it was to hold that, and I just told her, you are the same one. Just know you are the same one, and you are doing what I talk about, how to be a pillar of light on this planet. But I'm sitting here in Northern California looking out at my beautiful acre here with redwoods and oak trees, and so I'm doing it in optimal conditions. You're doing what I'm talking about and what I'm doing, but you're doing it in really difficult challenging conditions, and you're staying sane. You're not losing your humanity in the process. I want you to know you are the sane one. So here, even she had a community.

Anna Gatmon:
She had me, because she said, thank you. You don't know how much you've given me. So just to say that. But then I also and and I'm happy to to speak about that. I I meet with groups where we do what I call what is called subtle action. And if you want, I'll just take a few minutes to

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes, please.

Anna Gatmon:
To talk about that. Yeah. So subtle activism is, is, described in different ways by different people. There's one stream where it's 2,000 people get together and meditate and that energy so the numbers create create a shift. And there's research on how that has shifted certain things when when a big collective comes together.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
So that's one type. And there's a book called, subtle activism, and it is about that stream of activism. And and then there's subtle activism with it, which is the the subtle activism that I engage with and that I've studied, and I just completed a year training in it. And that was it's with a spiritual teacher called David Spangler.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And the Lorien foundation that that he that he has created. And so I've I've been studying with them for a few years, and he comes out from Findhorn. So we we both are from that lineage, which is why I'm connected to his way. And, so Findhorn is where I had my so called spiritual awakening. It's a spiritual community, ecovillage, and education center in Northern Scotland. And one of the teachings, the main teachings that came out of there is that nature has consciousness.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
And so you can communicate flower will speak to you, the sun flower will speak to you, the sun. Nature has consciousness, and not only does it have consciousness in order to evolve our consciousness on planet Earth, we need to be communicating with nature.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
It is a shared, it is a shared evolution. A tree is not just, you know, whatever leaves and trunk and roots. It is a living being with a consciousness and we can communicate with it. And so that that was the thing that really caught my attention when I went to Findhorn the first time in 2,000 and 4, it was like, oh, yes. Fairies exist. It's not just some woo woo thing. Divas, angels, all of that, the the inner worlds are a rich, rich, rich tapestry of consciousness that is what creates the material world because everything is consciousness before it becomes matter. So my understanding is that the inner worlds, the non physical worlds, the spiritual realms, are as complex as the physical realm and maybe even more so.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Okay.

Anna Gatmon:
And so, specifically, David Spangler, has the all of his life has been very sensitive to what he calls the subtle realms, the inner worlds. And so he's developed a method of subtle action, which is what I do. And, specifically, I had 2 sessions yesterday where we focused on the stories of the rape of women that are coming out from the attack of October 7th. And so we were working specifically with the conflict in Israel. And so in those, we we we go into a meditative state, and through a specific process, we scan the ecology of what we're focusing on. If it's the Middle East or whatever it is, it can be the homeless situation, the fires in the burial forest, or it could be just my own environment. Mhmm. And through that, we we there's intuitive information that comes to us.

Anna Gatmon:
Mhmm. And to each one in the group, something else or sometimes there's like a trend of 3 of us sense into the same thing.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And we provide we don't interfere because it should never interfere with this situation or impose anything on it, but we we send our blessing or whatever insight comes to us that is needed to create more wholeness in that particular focus that we're on, that we're focusing on, then we offer, we offer that to to the field. And so we might be working with the angel of Israel, or we might be, you know, if we're talking about, democracy in the US, which is at risk here, then we might bring the angel of America in. That I that I'm on because I've had interactions with it. And so I I invited it in. And so I I might invite different, beings or entities of consciousness that are in the nonphysical. They're they can be very powerful, but they are subtle to us. Mhmm. Or we and through so then through the inner telepathic realm, we make connection.

Anna Gatmon:
It might sound very mysterious, and it's not. No. Everyone can do it.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Exactly. It's not mysterious. Right. It's it's not just, you know, an idea that came up with David Langhorne. If you look at someone I mentioned earlier, Maladoma So may a lot of indigenous African wisdom is you work on the energetic or the spiritual realm because that's where the root is. Yeah. That's where the power is. And that can affect the material realm.

Anna Gatmon:
Yes.

Aminata Desert Rose:
So when you say subtle activism, you're talking about bringing your attention to that subtle realm.

Anna Gatmon:
Yes.

Aminata Desert Rose:
And and use the words, more wholeness, sending more wholeness to that. Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
Yes. So so so here's the thing. We are born into it. The the experiment of of planet Earth to my knowing what has been revealed to me is can the let me just take it back 1. So everything is energy in the world, but it's intelligent energy. Yes. It's consciousness.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes.

Anna Gatmon:
And so the spiritual non physical realms, all of the beings and entities that that reside there, in a sense came together to say, let's have an experiment. Can we create matter, which is more dense, where there is less of us because there is less, there's a container that's more dense, can we still create wonder and glory of of God or of light of source, why we we create matter.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And so the Gaian experiment, I believe, is can we create individuation and separation Mhmm. But still stay connected to wonder, to glory, to beauty, to love. That's the experiment. And we're we all of us here, we're not the fallen ones. We're not the forsaken ones. We are the brave ones on the edge of creation in this experiment trying to create matter, our lives, our projects, our connections without losing connection in in a sense imbuing our material world with all of these qualities from the spiritual realm.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes. It's like So Yeah. Can we stay in the wholeness, in the oneness even while we're individuated and recognizing that we're here to individuate?

Anna Gatmon:
So we're separated here, but there is a wholeness that we also humanity shares a consciousness, which is a whole consciousness.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And there's an angel for humanity, and then there's an angel for each country, and there's an angel for each state and for each city, because anything that exists in the material world has its consciousness counterpart, which we humans have given the name angels or divas or fairies, but it's an energy constellation that is the blueprint that allows it to shows up in the material world

Aminata Desert Rose:
Gotcha.

Anna Gatmon:
In the form of of a flower species or a human being.

Aminata Desert Rose:
I gotcha.

Anna Gatmon:
So if we tap into if I just sit here, then I I don't know what you're thinking about. You're far away. But if we tap into the inner world, then we can tap into the wholeness that we share.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah.

Anna Gatmon:
And in that wholeness, we can affect because you are a being of light. Mhmm. And if you shift yourself, then an eye shift and your audience shifts, then we have people in this shared consciousness that are now seeing themselves as precious beings of light, as pillars of light who are going to bring light into their day and into the world. And as we do that, we affect the collective whole consciousness of humanity, even if we can't with our love, stop the war in Gaza. But on our planet, there's a group of people who are walking around and shifting humanity's consciousness because we are feeling that we are precious beings of light and that we are generative and that we can bring love and light and sacredness and wonder and creativity and joy and delight and on and on and on Mhmm. To our day, to our interactions, to our actions, to our projects. Does that make sense?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yes. And I I I'm I'm I'm pushing on this because I'm struggling with this. So and I really wanna ask you, like, let's talk about the the diva of the Palestinian people. Like, are and you said Israel has a diva, and, you know, United States has a diva. Now in the in the era of consciousness in the in the nonmaterial sphere, I would assume these divas, diminished and some are, you know Right. Yeah. Diminished and some are, you know Right. Overinflated.

Aminata Desert Rose:
I would assume

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
But in the material realm, we have that inequality and that Yeah. Asymmetry. So so tell me, how do I so do I Yeah. What am I doing? Yeah. What am I doing for this diva when people are, you know, so pressed? What do I how do I support?

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah. So so so just this is a language that humans have created. And so usually, there's we relate to to the nonphysical realm as angels and to the nature realm as divas. But that's language that we use. Right?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Thank you.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Okay.

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah. You know, it's not about just if if it was just about we're all light, we're all love, okay, we can close shop and stop this experiment on planet Earth. I mean, it's as simple as that. We're all love, we're all light, and that's it. The experiment is can we create glorious matter, creative, ingenious, glorious matter like nature is and like civilization is, and still so so it's an evolution. It's taken 1,000,000,000 of years to arrive to where we are today. Mhmm. And so the human species is is the creative force on planet Earth, and it's evolving.

Anna Gatmon:
Mhmm. It is evolving, and it takes time. Just like it took time to evolve to have humanity on planet Earth. It's not just like the law of attraction is, oops, like this. It just happens. It's like it's taken 1,000,000,000 of years to get here, so we are evolving.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And so the counterparts in the nonphysical world, they're not not evolved. And it's like, oh, well, the counterpart is, like, not evolved because Israel is not evolved or Palestine is not evolved. It's like, it is there, and it's just holding the transformation. But because human beings have been given free will, then that's part it's a very complex experiment. Because once you give free will, like, a flower doesn't have free will. A tree doesn't have free will. They have consciousness and awareness of the sacredness and the wholeness of life. Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
They do have that, and when you communicate with trees, then you you you know that. But they don't have free will. They have a fixed pattern that that they emerge from. Mhmm. We humans, as part of the experiments, we've been given free will to choose between good and bad, right and wrong. So it's a very complex so so but the counterpart of an angel of America speaks so it's like your counterpart. You you were born

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And an essence, a part of the essence of your soul came into and became incarnate into flesh and bone.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
But most of you is still your essence is in the non physical realm. I had that experience at my birth.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And so that's still there. That hasn't changed. The fact that I am not as evolved as I'd like to be or that I can rage at someone or that I can hurt doesn't mean that the essence of my soul isn't whole there, routing for me, hoping for me to match it, to meet it, to slowly become more and more more of that to embody it more. If I was that from beginning, then there would no be you know?

Aminata Desert Rose:
You know, experiment.

Anna Gatmon:
I got to. Experiment. Right?

Aminata Desert Rose:
We're we're gonna take a break right here, Anna. Thank you so much for going deep with us, and we'll be right back when I take a break with our sponsors. So doctor Anna Gottman, it is is this has been a deep conversation, and I feel like what's really here now for me is, like, going back to where you started because you said that it was important to honor fire as a as a powerful element, not on my watch, not here. Yeah. And then you talked about going into that subtle realm. So, so I wonder, if you could if we wanted to work on the subtle realm, Anna, could you tell us, like, how we could do that? What's 1 or 2 things we could do?

Anna Gatmon:
Yeah. So it it's not complicated to do, but it's not something that, you know, I could tell you, we'll just do this and you'll be there. So so there is there is some training and some doing, and I'm really happy to come to your community and even create a group and to practice that so we can do an experiment like that and see how that works. So that's a possibility.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Okay. So there's a little bit of some learning that has to go on before you can delve into that realm. Okay.

Anna Gatmon:
Well well, it's just creating the space to delve in. But so let's say that we're here now

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
And, you know, it connects to the 4 keys for spiritual material wholeness that that I spoke about before that, first of all, settle into yourself and settle into yourself as a precious being and as a light being.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Mhmm.

Anna Gatmon:
You know, ground yourself to the earth. You know, the earth in in the two subtle action sessions I had yesterday, what came to me was was use the earth. Use the earth. It's like sink into the earth and sink into your body. That's was the message that I received. And so sink into the earth and sink into your body and into your being, And you are not just a result of circumstances, you are being of light that can create light wherever you go with your attitude, with your actions, your choices, your interactions. So come from that place to begin with because you need to be a vessel ready to to to show up, to to shift the consciousness, the the ocean of consciousness of humanity, right? So settle into the earth, settle into yourself, and then just ask. So then we're back to ask.

Anna Gatmon:
What do you wanna ask about? Do you wanna tap into, the situation in Gaza? Do you wanna, tap into the situation in Israel? Do you wanna tap into there's so much wounding that's erupting right now.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Yeah. What do

Anna Gatmon:
you want maybe you just wanna tap into the shift calling you right now into your world and just ask. And I don't know what your question is, but you can ask even what shift is calling me now? What shift what should I pay attention to now? Or pick something that you you wanna focus on, and then you just kind of in your mind, you kind of scan the ecology of of what you're focusing on. And be quiet. It's not an effort. It's a relaxation. It's a letting go. And then just listen. So then we're in the 2nd key.

Anna Gatmon:
Listen. 1st, you expanded your presence. Now you're listening attentively, and you do that through relaxation, not through efforting. And then listen to what comes, and you'll be surprised, boom, suddenly, like in a in a flash of light, flash of light, a message appears equality something. And then inspired action being the 3rd key is when you take action on it. And it could be just a blessing you do in your heart and insight and awareness. You can bless the situation with what. So it's not just a blind, I'm sending love.

Anna Gatmon:
It's more listen to what what is coming up from the situation that you're focusing on, what's needed. Maybe hurt needs to be acknowledged. Maybe tenderness is needed. Maybe joy is needed. Maybe some action is needed. It's not just a one thing. We're all love. We're all peace.

Anna Gatmon:
We're all grace. We're all 1. It's like there's a wholeness and there are pieces and just listen and take it from there. Trust yourself and see what comes up. That's the general of what's done, and the more you practice it in certain ways, the more it becomes. But you can do it right now because you have it in you.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Right. You know what struck me, Anna, is that the process you described is something, very similar to what I described with transforming your conversations about racism.

Anna Gatmon:
Mhmm. Yep.

Aminata Desert Rose:
You know? Because it beginning what is the beginning ground that expressiveness, expansiveness, could be attitude, settledness, connection to the earth. You know? Yeah. Absolutely as the

Anna Gatmon:
Like, you hold space for Yes. For transformation. Right? So first, you prepare yourself as a vessel for that. Right? And then you hold the space. And just like in the example, in in your jetted stock exactly. You ask yourself first, am I ready? Am I do I have the spaciousness? If you don't, that's fine. If you do, Then you ask, you listen, you hear. And I I love in the example that you gave in your TEDx talk.

Anna Gatmon:
You didn't preach because you could have given the whole preaching ceremony, and that's where you'd feel the exhaustion that you you mentioned as well. And now I need to educate another white person. And instead, you listen. And in the listening, you allowed the man you were talking to to hear himself and to shift his own conversation. Mhmm. That's powerful.

Aminata Desert Rose:
It

Anna Gatmon:
is. That's happening on an energy level versus you teaching him about race and you feeling exhausted and him and him then going, well, I'm not gonna dare to say anything again because the next thing I might say might be the wrong thing. And here we are in the dynamic that you mentioned in your talk. Right?

Aminata Desert Rose:
Right. So that first shift that you'd remember you said you said earlier could be one degree, and so that that that one degree could be, I'm going to hold space for transformation. I'm gonna get myself settled. I'm going to connect with the Earth. And if you keep going there, that'll eventually get you to Chicago rather than New York.

Anna Gatmon:
Yep. If yeah.

Aminata Desert Rose:
And I love what you said about inspired action, Anna, because in my own experience, we did a sound healing for peacemakers, and that was an action. Yes. And that came as an action. What can I do? So and I love saying that it it will be specific to you. It will it may not just be something blanket like we're all loved.

Anna Gatmon:
And and can I share before that ceremony, you shared the trepidation that you had about doing it? Right? So, again, I I think that the the I want your listeners to know that we're all courageous, and we're all taking risks. It's not like, oh, well, Amanda, she just does sound healing. She's got it all together. It's like you had to be at your own edge in order to say this is what I'm gonna stand for. That's fire. It's it's a candle maybe. It's a subtle fire, but it's a fire. You have to stand and be grounded and say, this is my truth around peacemaking.

Anna Gatmon:
I can't use right here the old slogans that worked 3 years ago maybe, but right now I'm in a different place. And so we've we we just need

Aminata Desert Rose:
to show up for our own life

Anna Gatmon:
and and and just be there because we're each struggling. People tell me, you know, you you appear so confident. You you present as so strong and confident. And I say, don't let me fool you. I'm scared a lot, but my devotion is 3 steps ahead of my fear. My devotion is 3 steps ahead of my fear. So I keep going, and I keep working on the fear that has to do with the wounding and all of that. And we both keep walking, my devotion and my fear.

Anna Gatmon:
And as long as my devotion is ahead of me, I keep walking. And when the fear takes over, then I have to stop because then I can't function anymore. Right?

Aminata Desert Rose:
That's right. That's right. And I think it's so well, first of all, I wanna repeat what you said. My devotion is ahead of my fear and with the show up for our lives. Yep. Yes. So thank you so much for leaving us with those pearls of wisdom. And, if people wanna stay in touch with you, if they wanna find out more about, subtle actions, they wanna

Anna Gatmon:
get

Aminata Desert Rose:
your book, tell us how to do that.

Anna Gatmon:
So the best way is to go to my website, which is annagatman.com. There's I I I, share twice a week. I offer a mystical moment, a gift from a a quality each week. It's a different quality, and you can sign up for that, and you receive those messages. There's my podcast, Expansive with Anna Gattman on YouTube, so you can go looking for that. And once you're on my list, then we then then and you can always reach out personally. I I always welcome that.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Wow. So here we have doctor Anna Gottman. Thank you so much for coming today, for showing up for your life Yeah. For being willing to share with us, be on the edge Yes. To leave the land.

Anna Gatmon:
Can I say one more thing Absolutely? Came to me because it just popped in. You are holding space for this podcast. You held space for me to show up as a guest. You're holding space for the mother treat community. That's fire. That's fire. That's fire.

Aminata Desert Rose:
That is fire. No. You're right. Oh, you're right. Whenever you take a stand, that's fire.

Anna Gatmon:
We just have to change our perception of what fire is. We we go to oh my god. Fire is burning, and we have to to evacuate, which I did a few years ago here. But fire is so much more, and you are creating fire with everything that you're doing in your world and the space that you're holding for people.

Aminata Desert Rose:
I appreciate that. Thank you.

Anna Gatmon:
Thank you. It's been a pleasure, and it's my birthday. So it's been a pleasure.

Aminata Desert Rose:
Happy birthday to you. Alright. See you all next week.